Going Ultralight...a radical paradigm shift

also posted over at TreeBuzz by myself.

Lets stop for a minute and examine our gear (recreational only): 1/2" to 9/16" climbing ropes, strong enough to lift a truck, steel carabiners with breaking strengths exceeding 50,000lbs, huge false crotch pulleys, hefty slings that a crane could use for lifting tanks, thick 2mm throwlines and bulky lead weights, massive slingshots, and all the other associated gear for recreational tree climbing........it all adds up to lots of weight to carry around, which makes the climber fatigued....even before they start climbing. And lets not forget about the climbing ropes......do we REALLY NEED ropes that have a MINIMUM breaking strength of 5000+ lbs? Do we really need lanyards and friction savers made from webbing that is strong enough to tow a 15ton truck. Do we really need that big steel carabiner? the same one that military helicopters use to hold a 50,000lb load under the belly of the 'copter? in short, do we really need to lug around all this weight?

I for one am tired, tired of hauling a 50lb pack whenever i want to go treeclimbing on the weekends. Rope, slings, biners, harness, gloves, helmet, throwlines, throwweights, buckets and bags for everything, water, food, rain gear, first aid kit, etc etc etc. My shoulders are hurting, i'm getting tired and i have'nt even started climbing yet!!!! and i'm very physically fit! :crazy:

So I propose a radical paradigm shift in this matter, a shift towards thinner ropes, smaller slings, lighter biners, etc.

"oh but the safety factor" the gallery cries! "tradition" they cry, "you can't do that! they murmur, "who does he think he is?" they whisper.

well, I'll tell you who i am: i'm a person that is never satisfied with anything, i need to tweak and fiddle and remake and experiment with things, to suit MY NEEDS.

so here goes:

Climbing rope:

Black Widow Micro Bull line.

Yes thats right, a bull line for climbing. It is 1/4" thick, (and yet it STILL exceeds 6000lbs min breaking strength, so all the safety naysayers should be happy), it packs into a tiny rope bag, almost 75% SMALLER than a same length climbing line. Its insanely lightwieght for its strength rating...so already we have dropped weight in our kit. Its tough, abrasion resistant, and you know what? works just fine for a climbing line.

Throwlines.

Berkley FIRELINE. 100lb test, 1/2 MM thick (YES a half mm thick!) slick as can be, tough as cable and VERY abrasion resistant, even over dirt and stones. Deploys easily, stores easily, and unlike regular throwlines, can be spooled up every time for storage. will pull a rope up into a tree lickety split and with ease.

Throwweights:

a 3/4 oz lead weight, tied to the above mentioned FIRELINE, can be shot upwards of 400 feet with a small handheld slingshot. No need for 1 lb (16oz) throwbags anymore. (seriously, ONE POUND throwbags??? :crazy: )

Slingshot:

a small cheap handheld slingshot, that weighs about 3 oz, replaces a 30lb bigshot or whathaveyou.

Friction Savers:

thin strong 1/2" wide Dyneema or Spectra webbing. With smaller 1" steel ring on one side, and a 1.5" steel ring on the other. OR a SMALLER leather tube (thinner climbing line remember?)

Carabiners:

ditch that 1 lb steel locking biner and get a ultralight locking aluminum biner. Weighs 2oz. (and to think i used to carry over 10 lbs of biners in my kit.

Pulleys:

go small and go light. Micro pulleys rock. Think GRAMS vs POUNDS....we dont need big steel false crotch pulleys...!

packs and storage bags:

toss that heavy cordura.....lots of strong ultralight nylon and other material packs out there that weigh less than a 1/4 LB (thats even less than most throwweights...!)

so there you have it. A very massive weight REDUCTION, with no loss in the safety factor. Everything packs into a smaller pack, its lighter to carry, less fatiguing, which makes for a better easier day of climbing. I think that with a downsizing in gear size (for recreational climbing ONLY) will produce a new breed of extreme, fast climbers.

HOW LIGHT CAN WE GO, while retaining a healthy safety factor? < I issue this challenge to all: input your ideas, tests, etc. Lets find materials and new fibers, new technology etc, that can be used for going ultralight, while retaining that all important safety factor.

I have already started, i have gone to some extremes already that would make some of you freak out and cringe :smile: but i trust my life in those decisions and picks of gear. I have never been a follower, i have always been a leader and a innovator. I'm already climbing a mixed hybrid style of DRT & SRT combined.


THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX!!!! (or in this case the tree)
:cool:

Hey SRT-Tech,

I like to see people who want to think outside the box (or the tree), particularly when it comes to minimalism.

My entire "field load" of New Tribe harness, four aluminum carabiners, a pair of Petzl ascenders, a rappelling rack, two footloops, 150 feet of sportline, and 50 meters of Zingit throwline with two 12-ounce throwbags, weighs in at just a couple of ounces over 22 pounds. And by the standards of some of the people I climb with, that's a heavy load. Some of those people climb in Swiss seats tied from 1-1/2 inch tubular webbing (ouch!).

There has been serious discussion, and a lot of out-of-the-box thinking about minimalism going on at the treeclimbercoalition.org message board.

Our unofficial motto: "Every ounce feels like a pound after just a mile or so of hiking...."

Have you hugged your trees today,
Wild Bill from Dawsonville
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This should be fun. What you describe sounds miserably heavy. I think most climbers vary their gear configuration depending on location, terrain, length of walk in. I use my woods cart to carry gear when I want to bring the kitchen sink. It goes just about anywhere. If not I park it and stage my gear transport to the location.

The following gear is way less than 50 lbs: Basic New Tribe Saddle, 120 ft. of Fly or any 11mm arborist rope, two autolocking aluminum caribiners, 180 ft. of 1.75 Zing-It and two 10 oz throwbags will allow you to get into a tree with a 50 ft. first branch. For trees with lower first branches substitute the 120 ft. rope with a 60 ft. double ended adjustable lanyard made from 11mm arborist rope. Add water bottle, bandana, 2 peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and start walking.

The Big Shot is actually fairly light when matched with standard fiberglass arborist poles. However no need to carry it, just two-stage your rope placement with the small slingshot/Fireline and then use a light braided throwline like Zing-It to haul your rope up.

However I understand that you are talking about a paradigm shift in tree climbing gear. I think you'll need to get very specific about describing a proposed climbing system (DdRT or SRT) and components to be used so that comparisons can be made between current sytems. For instance with the Black Widow bull line what kind of ascender system would you use?

There is a problem where individual perception diverges from gear rating. Let's say you are doing an 80 ft. SRT ascent into a big conifer. Your tie-in places you 15 ft. out from the trunk. You're climbing up and reach 20 ft., 40 ft., then 60 ft. How do you feel at those different height points? How often are you looking at your rope? Does your confidence in the rope change as you go higher? What's the smallest diameter rated rope you will (actually not theoretically) make this type of ascent with?
-moss

rather than retype the book i just wrote, i'll provide a link:

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=57103&an=0&page=0#57103 :D


most of my climbs (locally) are SHORT 20 - 40 footers to first limb, then its all branchwalking from there. I had 100% trust in the line at those hieghts. anything HIGHER than those, I would'nt even contemplate a rope less than 11mm.

I experimented with a 8mm static line, using drt and a blakes. The line is ultra narrow when loaded, but gloved hands made for easy climbs.

the micro friction saver is bullet proof. Zero isues with abrasions or glazing from the adjuster prussick or the strength of the smaller stainless steel anchor shackles. noe zip nada. works great.

keep the feedback, comments coming. Find me a rope that has the strength of the Balck Widow Bull line , the same size, but maybe different fibers (as has been mentioned - the black widow does'nt tolerate heat that well (and yet i see arborists running it with 4 -5 wraps over a portawrap, dropping a huge tree section with it....hmmmm..no heat there???)

did some weight shaving today:

- ditched ALL of my carabiners from the pack. 10lbs gone. i can tie directly into the big aluminum tie in point on the harness.

- ditched the adjustable false crotch, Petzl minder pulley, two steel locking biners, canvas cambuim saver, and 60 feet of 11mm BW11 goldline. 20lbs gone. I'll miss that setup though( i'll still use it.....)

- ditched the 8mm prussick foot loop with rubber sleeve for the boot to rest on. 1lb gone. Switched to a 1/2 oz dyneema/nylon 8mm webbing sling. Grips just fine on the rope, no friction (heat) issues, i remove it before descending.

- ditched the 12mm x 20 feet lanyard & Rescuecender. 2lbs gone. Switched to a 8mm x 10 feet static line, with 6mm prussick adjuster. Direct tie in the harness D rings.

- ditched the cambuim saver (6 foot endloop crane sling webbing, rated for 5000lbs WLL, with 1/2" and 3/8" steel D rings on each end). 4 lbs gone. Switched to my Micro cambium saver: 4' x 12mm dyneema loop sling, with thin cordura tubing for sling protection, and 1/4" stainless steel mailliine rapide, and 5/16th stainless steel D shackle. 1/8 lb.

-ditched the heavy tactical rappeling gloves and switched to ultra light deerskin gloves, with extra layer on palm. very light.

- ditched the ELDERID mountaineering helmet. switched to a MOUNT BLANC GRIVEL foam shell with carbon fiber exterior. designed for ice climbing. very light.


rough wieght shavings of over 38 lbs. brings the gear down to around 20lbs. now it fits in a small 5 gallon pail that can be easily carried, or i can put in the little pack.

i still want a light, thin rope though that packs down smaller. testing a 8mm static rope tommorow, that has a high load rating for its size. It also packs down small into a medium climbers chalkbag.

Again, this setup is strictly for lower climbs, 20- 40 feet. and Recreational.

Moss and Wild Bill:

i contacted a rope maker today and got some info on TECHNORA fiber: Of particular interest to me was the high heat resistance, axcellent flexibility and superior abraision resistance. I asked about friction knots and was told that any prussick or similar knot will hold very well, and will not glaze or fatigue the rope.

I also found the strength ratings impressive:

a 1/4" size tests out at 8000lbs, yet only weighs 2lbs for a 200 foot hank.

i was told that the rope is easy to hold in the hand, with any leather glove...this may be a rope i want to try....extremism...

---

high Tenacity Aramid Fiber
TECHNORA

Technora is a para-aramid fiber independently developed by Teijin, which has been commercially available since 1987. It has high tensile strength, high modulus and excellent resistance to heat and chemicals, especially acids and alkalis.

Technora is made from copolymers and is produced in the different process from PPTA(poly-paraphenylene terephthalamide) .



Characteristics

(1) High tensile strength
The tensile strength of Technora is 28g/de(24.7cn/dtex,350kg/mm2), which is 8 times as strong as steel and 3 times as strong as fiberglass, polyester and nylon of the same weight. This property will serve significantly to reduce weight.

(2) Fatigue resistance
High tenacity fibers generally show a loss of strength against repeated abrasion, flexure and stretch, Technora has excellent fatigue resistance, as compared to the other high tenacity fibers.

(3) Dimensional stability
Technora has a stiff and highly oriented molecular structure which leads to a high modulus, low creep and low stress relaxation. Due to its low thermal shrinkage, it has good dimensional stability.

(4) Heat resistance
Technora has a decomposition temperature of 500C. It can be used at 200C for long periods of time and, even at 250C, it maintains more than half of its tensile strength that was measured at room temperature.

(5) Chemical resistance
Technora exhibits high resistance to both acids, alkalis and organic solvents. It is also resistant to sea water and steam.

I was confused with SRT tech call for "Light Gear" changes. My gear set weights less than 20 ponds including the rope, helmet and saddle, binners, etc. From the list you posted and I see there a lot of stuff that only a professional Arborists would have. So the regular recreational tree climber may not even consider buying any of those pieces of gear. Also I think that the average climber goes maybe a mile or two away from his car to reach the target tree so that is not a very long distance to carry the gear in a small backpack. I have done 12 days of backpacking treks in Philmont - New Mexico carrying camping gear and in that case our packs were fairly heavy about 40 to 60 lbs of food, water, tents, clothes, etc but I would not carry any of those things if I am going tree climbing. Some of the climbers going to the Panama climbs that have to carry very long ropes over 250 ft (ask Joe and Wild Bill) They may be hauling quite a bit of weight to their research station climbs but those are the exception not the rule.
The small diameter rope may not work well with mechanical ascenders but I am not an expert so I let other chime in on that topic

Don't know the static line you intend to use...BWIII is tough for knots, about the only knot I can get to dress and set is the fig-8. Also I don't know of any ascenders designed for 8mm rope, check Storick's (SP.?) site. Also I have trouble enough with my hands with 1/2" line, 1/4" line while strong enough will be like dental floss at the end of a long day of climbing, you should think about that.

I can climb on 150' hank of sportline and my rock harness and be done. Those bits don't even fill the void on one side of the front float in my kayak. We've done the ultralight conversation before. Ditch the bag all togather, grab some sportline, strap on a rock harness and go.

As far as slingshots, don't go into a park with that, it's a weapon. Learn to monkey fist instead.

I'm all for ultralight, but if you are truly climbing in the wild, you need to be prepared above all else. THAT is what you should focus on. Ditch all the weight, then imagine every scenario that might happen with the gear you have left, play "what-if". Truth be told, it may save your life.


Climb Safe!
Icabod

slingshots here are not weapons, unless they are used as weapons against property or persons. (that was the offical law enforcement definition i was given). (although i recently got rid of that item as well form the kit)

you make good points, thanks. However I feel i should make a rebuttal

8mm ( and recently 6 and 7mm ropes with new technoloy and fibers) static lines are used by (EXPERIENCED) canyoneers everyday (including myself.) I know the risks of canyoning with thin rope (edge cutting, abrasion cutting , sand, water on the line, etc) and i would NEVER let a NON experienced person use one. HOWEVER, as someoe who is a rope technician and has rigged, rappelled (both long drop, sturcture, tower, bridge, wilderness and waterfalls) and who inspects his gear thrice daily, i feel i am more than qualified to use thinner lines. If anything, going thinner makes one MORE AWARE of what to look for, and more attentive to the climb.

I used the TECHNORA rope in 1/4" size as a example of a EQUIVALENT strength rope to the "normal" 1/2" 5400lb test climbing rope. Not only is the Technora rope in 1/4 " JUST AS STRONG, its more heat resistant, more abrasion resistant, zero stretch and 75% LIGHTER. The thin diameter does not bother me, i've handled thinner lines daily (both under tension and off tension). If anyhting the thinner line lets me see more, there is'nt a big rope in front of my face.

descednign on thin ropes, in terms of rappel devices. Ive used the figure 8 with ears successfully (double wrap) and a rescue rack and a Micro rescue rappel rack . They both handle thin lines just fine, with control, very little heat buildup.

I was'nt suggesting going lower ont he safety factor.....but finding materials that are just as strong as the "normal" rope but thinner, so there is less weight, less BULK to carry around.

keep in mind again...this is for LOW, recreational climbs, around 20 feet to first limb, then its lanyards and tieoffs all the way up the many limbs..

your comments are much appreciated

There is a conversation going on Tree Climbers Coalition that has some relevance to this thread. In the first post Jbird starts off with: "I wish that new climbers would endeavor to build a solid foundation for their climbing skillset on known techniques before they rush into experimentation prematurely."

The point being that we all appreciate innovation but for the innovation to make sense in tree climbing it helps if the innovator gets some hours in trees using the current accepted techniques. By "some" hours I mean months of climbing at least. Even if a new tree climber has plenty of high angle rope experience that does not translate into actual hours in trees.

For solo tree climbing the most important skill is tree assessment. Learn everything you can about tree structure, health, identification etc. If a new climber was to ask advice I'd say climb DdRT for 6 months to a year. Put your static rope away, forget about SRT. I know some may disagree. SRT is for getting in and out of the tree quickly. For climbing IN the tree DdRT is the bread and butter. Learn it in-depth. Know it. And I don't mean intellecually, know it in your body. Climb until you can do everything in the dark: tie all your knots, set a new pitch from within the tree with lights out. Back in the daylight: climb both ends of the rope, double crotch, do traverses DdRT, learn how to move in a tree, learn how to live in tree time, take a nap in a tree, spend the night sleeping in a tree. After you do all that your innovations will have a relationship to what your tree body and mind asks for. Don't stop innovating but be patient. Let your tree climbing self catch up with your inventor/innovator self. How's that for free advice?
-moss

does the 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week of dDrt i'm putting into tree climbing drills, climber pick offs and repetitive muscle memory drills (climbign techniques/knot tying reps, throwline casting/friction saver setting etc) count for anything?

how about the last month of moonlight NIGHT tree climbing, using "tie by touch, climb by touch" muscle memory exercises? if i can disassemble, clean and reassemble a rifle with my eyes closed, I sure as heck can apply those same techniques to knot tying.

just saying, i'm putting in many hours, MORE in fact than many people. My mornings consist of setting SRT lines on a local cliff and rappelling and ascending, before breakfast. then its off to the trees for the day. I ussualy finish up in a local park, practicing my throwline placement and friction saver setting.

And personally i feel the crossover experience counts for a lot. There is MANY similarities to tree climbing vs rescue/high angle structure and even some tactical ropework i got to experience. Peopel coming from those backgrounds will learn techniques faster and be able to apply other techniques (self rescue or companion rescue BETTER than someone with NO rope (in any rope field) experience......)

also some of us are fast learners who quickly understand the theory, and do exceptionally well at the practical.



point set match!

Sounds like you're doing great things. Keep up the good work! Don't over do it though, 12/7 working on new tree climbing skills can cause injury. Everything you've described counts for something. What I'm not hearing is the voice of an experienced tree climber. Keep at it.
-moss

its hard to judge someone over a computer I know i come across as a young know it all, but in reality i'm 34 with years of crossover experience, an open mind, and a thirst for edumacation and field experience.

I might not always speak "tree'-ese" or adapt the "norm", but end result is i'm still climbing trees (and safely i might add).....and at the end of the day thats all i care about.....

thanks for the encouragment!

I had a lot of crossover experience too when I got started, and I aggree with you, to a point. The one thing that trees have that rocks and buildings and other typically encountered structures dont, are hands. Now I can hear ya, trees don't have hands, but they do. Just be prepared to find that out. Moss has a very good point that I'd pay attention to (and it sounds as though you have) head knowledge is great, but muscle memory, as you know, may save your life.

Just be prepared, climb safe. The norms that you see are there from years of climbers experience before us. Move things along, but remember the best way to know what needs to change is to know what is.

Icabod

Out of curiosity, what rope mfg did you talk to?

What technora line would you use? Keep in mind that you're talking about using a climbing line that, for all intensive purposes, has NO shock absorbing characteristics.

Also, FWIW, I've seen several dyneema lines glazed from being mis-used on sail boats and also on portawraps.

I've been researching lighter/smaller climbing lines for a while. I'm not ready to switch from a polyester just yet...but I'll let you know when it happens!

love
nick