Ohhh!!! I think that I might get it!???
After re-reading Tobe's comments many times and studying the pics of the systems again in the catalog, I may have discovered and can clarify what he's saying. Here's my take:
If you notice, he said "As for a separate belay (of the consumer’s choice), I was simply following Petzl’s published lead on the R.A.D., a similar system of only one ascender (I’D in their case) at or above the waist." Similar system to what?--To his Tree Frog system except that his has TWO SEPARATE OR REDUNDANT ASCENDERS AT OR ABOVE THE WAIST AT ALL TIMES!!!, that is, in his view, the Croll and the Handled Ascender. So this is also why he says, "The Tree Frog is a redundant system (having 2 ascenders, at and above the harness attachment), the Texas system (New Tribe Frog) is "technically" not.: ----Why not?--Because there is not two redundant or separate devices at or above the waist AT ALL TIMES!! separately attached to the waist.--Newtribe only has one tether to the waist on the ascender that remains always above the waist.

Also, you'll notice that the other systems have Prussiks above the top ascender completely separately attached with a tether to the waist, so there was no need to put the disclaimer above these. But obviously Sherrill is the one who decided to draw in these Prussiks above whichever systems they chose to. So did Sherrill decide to put these Prussiks above the other systems to keep them from looking as faulty? This question remains, especially because it is very very unusual and has even been rejected by the caving community to use a Prussik above a Ropewalker or Mitchell system. (See Storrick's site for further on the rejection of the Prussik by long vertical groups.)
Or did Sherrill simply decide to use Petzl's disclaimer on the RADS, like Tobe said, following Petzl's lead on this, but then even accepting that, then who's lead did they follow on the disclaimer being put above the only other system remaining w/o a Prussik?--That was the Newtribe system!!
Anyway, further proof of having two devices completely separately attached to the waist, is given in his other paragraph, where he speaks of even if the Croll begins to arrest the fall or even if it were to sever the rope at the waist, the upper handled ascender would still secondarily or separately grab and hold at the waist also arresting the fall.
Hope this helps,

Toby needs to be specific & exact about where he got the justification to place the statement Important: A separate belay required but not shown

Here is what his post said...

Originally posted by seanlarkin
As for a separate belay (of the consumer’s choice), I was simply following Petzl’s published lead on the R.A.D.

So I looked for a similar statement in the Petzl I'D documentation and found nothing. Then I looked through the Petzl Work Solutions 2005 catalog. I did notice that in every diagram or photograph of the I'D in use there is a separate and independent safety line backing up the use of this device.

Petzl supplies 11 pages of instructions and diagrams to describe ways to self belay and ascend with the I'D and NEVER is it used without being fully backed-up by a separate fall arrest EXCEPT when listed under (of all things) use in Arboriculture. <on p.22>

I guess tree climbers are exempt from gravity, Yes/No?

Additionally, page 12 - center column shows the Petzl diagram for their ascent/decent climbing system. Notice the full back-up line in use at all times!

The post from Sophia at New Tribe put me at ease, at least for the Frog. And, I make no plans to slap a belay on top of a belay when using an I'D. <lets be reasonable here>

So how about it TCI forum Pro Climbers & Instructors. . . Make the call.
What would YOU have printed if it was your catalog, which is being read by a large number of quasi experienced recreational climbers such as myself ? ? ?

Let's be clear here, in my humble opinion, that the simple solution, implied by Tobe Sherrill, I believe, is to simply add another tether from the second ascender to the waist on the Newtribe or ID systems, and then they will "technically" qualify as having two redundant or separate backups. So I believe we don't have to add another device above these systems, just simply tether both devices already being used to the waist.

So who of you here is going to try a mock up? Could someone here rig this second belay device for the New Tribe system and road test it? How cumbersome is this new tether going to be in practical application? Are we talking about a concept here or a real world technique? Is it a modification to the already existing system or just another good idea that no one will use?

Please attach a photo along with your posting.

Hi everyone,
Just wanted to point out that in our New Tribe ascenders system, BOTH ascenders are similarly tethered to the waist. Nothing would be gained by adding another tether to our lower ascender, since it is already secured to the rope and the climbing harness in exactly the same way as the upper ascender.

That means that if the upper ascender should fail, the climber would fall a maximum of about 6 feet, into the slack on the lower ascender strap.

Sophia

It looks like we are beating this dead horse to pulp. The New Tribe system has been tested and tried reliable and safe to a good reasonable standard. Any additional belays, ropes and stuff will only add confusion to a fairly simple system without any additional measurable increase in safety to the climber. The disclaimer used by Tobe was just (IMHO) that a "disclaimer" to cover legal concerns on his mind and following the similar disclaimers by PETZL when their equipment use is involved.
If you read the WARNING in the inside cover page of the catalog (page 2). That I am not going to retype here again but simple says that: "descriptions and drawings on this catalog are given to show various uses or known techniques and ARE NOT INTENDED as substitute for instructional review and PROPER TRAINING." " You can be seriously injured or KILLED" if you fall or something falls on you.

Are we arriving at the point that we agree that this dead horse (topic) is redundant in nature (to pull out a SRT pun)? Should we chock up the mystery belay (“tether them down boys!”) for the New Tribe system as a general disclaimer statement in the Petzl state of mind (when in doubt, belay it out- or give direction to that effect (overkill) so no one can be blamed if misuse comes into play (“we told them to use a belay of their choice in the literature”)?

It reads to me that if you use devices that are not attached at your waist anchor point that bad things can happen that can be prevented by the use of the “Phantom Belay”.

In the fine print you read that they require its use but no one knows who they are. Are they the “Phantom They”?

The photos and drawings are tuff to see the “Phantom Way”. But who am I to say.

In the end each climber will have to decide for himself and grant the veto right to any climbers around him. Tom Dunlap explained that to me that if you are climbing with others and someone around you is uncomfortable with your or his safety then you should agree to their veto.

I will have to try the Tobe Tree Frog style out myself before commenting.

See you at the top,
Dan

Treeman,
You had asked for ideas on adding a belay to the NewTribe FROG and/or Sherrill RAD climbing systems…

Well Sir, Your in luck! I offer for your inspection. . .

The Widow Maker 2000


I tried in earnest to use a beer can instead of a Snapple bottle for the lower unit but the beer can was just too flimsy. I also tried to locate an old toilet bowl float for the top mechanism but I ended up using two PVC drain pipe caps cemented together. <darn hardware store>

Have a closer look…


The red loop runner connects to your harness tie-in-point along with the two ascenders (ala NewTribe FROG system) and if you are using the Sherrill RAD system and you need to Yo-Yo (ascend & descend) you simply yank on the yellow cord and down you go. <marvelous, eh?>

Thank you Tom Dunlap for presenting the Yo-Yo idea in the first place. NOTE: Tom, you will not be held liable in case of a Snapple bottle malfunction.

Comments Gentlemen?
Electrojake

Are you serious??!!
Ohhh!
So this is the Phantom Belay we've all been wondering about!
Maybe we should call it the "CYA Phantom Belay".--kinda rhymes too.--haha.
Just one question. When you're ready to flush yourself--uh I mean descend, what is the top device that the flush-uh I mean descent cord runs through?
Ingenious Electro! --hahahahahaha!!