The Fly problems?

I was hitting up the TreeBuzz board when I stumbled across this:

"Fly is probably the best cheap rope you can get for the money.

2 things, Doesnt hold certain knots well, AND blakes hitch does not work on it very well at all for a climbing knot, you need to use, one of the prussik like knots, ie vt, xt, distel something along those lines.

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=32995&an=0&page=0#32995

There's the link! Now, does anyone know if this is true? Because I was thinking of buying either the Fly or Poison Ivy... but if they Fly doesn't hold arborist knots... specifically the blakes hitch... then I don't want it. I was going to use HRC or Ultra-Tech chord for the split tail, but can anyone confirm that Blake's doesn't work well on the FLy? Thanks

mateo

There have been some discussions on “Fly” here on TCI…
Click this link for a starter: www.tci-forums.com/viewthread.php?tid=541

Fly is nice for single-line climbing. It’s very “slinky” or perhaps flexible is the right word for it. However, it does not hold a knot well. Probably because of it’s incredible flexibility. (Keep in mind, I’m a recreational climber only, not a pro).

Poison Ivy is a lot more predictable than Fly. Poison Ivy feels and handles a lot more like the old-school 16 strand line that I am used to doing DRT on.

Bottom line, Fly or Poison Ivy?
Heck, get the Fly. It’ll be an adventure!

I've never used a Blake's on Fly, only advanced friction hitches. Besides that one poast on TB I've never heard anyone ever say that a trad hitch doesn't work on the Fly.

I've been using Blaze for a lnog time and like it a lot. PI might be easier to find. Blaze is the same rope as PI but a micron smaller in diameter which no one could actually tell.

Knots will work on the Fly, BUT as already mentioned above it is a flexible rope. All knots must be dressed and tested before leaving the ground. I use the fly all the time for my personal rope and Safety Blue for others I take climbing. I have had my stopper knots - figure-8s work their way loose if I did not check them periodically on a climb. A Blake's 4-3 slips easily and must be tested before descending with it. I have not had any trouble with a Blake's 5-3, but dress all knots and test them. Once again, I love and use the Fly all the time since I can change between the SRT and DRT without changing rope. I have not tried the Poison Ivy. Hope this helps.

mateo, Sorry, I think I misunderstood your query!

I looked back at www.tci-forums.com/viewthread.php?tid=647 and realized that the line your asking about was for SRT & DdRT climbing, yes/no?

Anyhow, reading back through the posts leads me to the following question…
The only type of climbing that a Blake’s hitch would be used on is DRT, so why wouldn’t you simply stay with a good-old 16 strand line and save the Fly & Poison Ivy for SRT and alloy gadget climbing?

Just wondering, since I am undeniably more of a learner than a teacher here

Electrojake

Anyhow, reading back through the posts leads me to the following question…
The only type of climbing that a Blake’s hitch would be used on is DRT, so why wouldn’t you simply stay with a good-old 16 strand line and save the Fly & Poison Ivy for SRT and alloy gadget climbing?

Because it's easier to ascend with SRT, but DdRT is better for in tree positioning (atleast as far as I have read, I'm not even close to being past a learning phase of my tree climbing experience). So I would like a rope that works well with both systems! I'm currenly curious about XTC... I assume it works well with arborist knots, but how well it functions with mech. ascenders I need to figure out.

mateo

Tie a short bridge with the Fly. This is a good rule as it extends itself a bit. PI a bit better on this issue of creep and bridge extension. I tie my Blake's at B-53 (5 wrap/3 tuck).

Branch Mgr had a new hank- right out of the bag, Velocity. It milked mid coil during a descent makeing it almost useless. The tacky surface pulled out every rope saver sleeve installed. A rope that truely generates bad language.

Any of the 13mm ropes will take mechanical ascenders. The smaller diameter ropes just glide a bit better. My curent love is the PI. My long rec rope is the Fly. School rope is Safety Blue white. I use other rope brands as well. My work ropes are XTC. Blaze is used for long SRT hikes up the trees at work.

On other forums, I've been posting observations about slippage with the Blake's hitch. I'm a Fly user. I've never had a problem with a standard Blake's Hitch on the initial ascent. I have observed slippage on the second pitch which typically pulls at an angle from vertical. I once observed some unusual slippage on making a transition from descent to ascent on the same pitch. I uses a descender beneath the BH, and I recognize that I had a slight twist in my set-up by placing the ascender on an opposite side-D.

I don't judge the Fly as unsafe. I climb with it alot, and I climb with other climbers that use it. However I attribute the slippage from my experiences as the BH changing shape enough that it doesn't bite - initially. I have the option to climb with a Sportline. It flattens out and bites hard, which has lead me to prefer the Fly.

I climbed a few trees this weekend with a second pitch and a descend and ascend combination. I never saw slippage.

My personal exerience is that the BH works fine on the Fly. I'll try to factually assess the root cause of this minor slippage, which is easily arrested. At this point, I can't say that it's the FLY.

I feel safe on the Fly and BH and will continue use.

As Jim says, slippage with a Blakes hitch on the Fly is not a huge issue. However, in my experience handling is slightly better with most of the 16 strand arbo lines, as well as Blaze and Velocity. I have not handled the Poison Ivy, though.


As for the brand new hank of Velocity: my friend had the same problems. He milked and cut the cover and then threw the rope in the washing machine to take off the stickiness. He is now very happy with it.

Any rope should be milked thoroughly before it goes into the trees. Even the old stalwarts of climbing, the 16 strand ropes. The new breed of ropes in smaller diameters are more like double braids and there is some imbalance between the inner and outer parts.

In all of the time that I've spent on 11mm ropes I haven't noticed an hitch slippage. But that's probably because I haven't used a Blake's for years except when I need to use both ends of the rope for an odd positioning.

Make the move to using a Distel hitch and I'll bet that any hitch slipping issues will be resolved. The move to a high performance hitch isn't as exotic or radical as many people think. The care and feeding of a split tail is no different than a trad setup and the performance is so much better.

As I'm writing I got to wondering about the physics of hitches on smaller diameter ropes. the perfromance of friction hitches has been, literally, in my face for some time. While I've been working on a hitch for up and down SRT climbing I've been very aware of the variables in rope/hitch/cord work together. As circles shrink or grow, the volumes change by factors of three. I'll have to sit down and work out the geometry accurately this wek. But, I can see the the contact area in a smaller diameter rope would be smaller than in a trad rope. Since the load stays the same, how does that effect the gripping of the hitches?

during my SRT work I've found that some hitches work better with some cords than others. Changing the cord can make a huge difference and add complex variables to the equation.

The texture of the sheath and suppleness of the rope and cord will be more variables to account for.

Last but not least...the climber's weight and climbing style. A heavy climber that moves gently will load hitches much differently than a light climber who bounces around in the tree.

In the "old days" of 16 strand ropes, there were few varaiables. Now there are many. It's going to be pretty hard to have solid, dependable guidelines for all rope users. Having discussion forums is a great way to stay connected and share insights.

What is this milking you guys are talking about?
BTW, I like the fly for recreational climbing-SRT and DdRT.

A rope that is made with a cover and core like almost all arbo ropes will have some movement between the two parts. When the ropes are made there is a tension woven into the two parts. Most of the time the core is woven tighter and the weave is such that the helixes are more parallel so it is pretty stable. The sheath tends to be the one that moves.

Milking happens when the loose part of the sheath is pulled down by a friction tool or friction hitch. The sheath gets baggy and bunches up.

All ropes should be milked before they are climbed on. There are many different but similar ways to dress the new rope.

Here's one:

Tie off one end of the rope to a sturdy anchor. Make sure that the other end of the rope is not hot cut. You can tape the end to prevent raveling but make the tape loose for now. If you have an eye spliced in one end this is the end to anchor. Put a bight of rope through the small eye of a figure eight or some other rapell device. A Munter hitch works too as well as your favorite friction hitch. Pull the device down the rope but keep tension on the rope like you would for a descent. Wear leather gloves for this.

As you slide down the rope you should see a bunching of the sheath ahead of the friction device. When the bunching gets too big to allow you to move the device, stop and push the milked off sheath down to the end of the rope with your hand. Go back to the device and milk down the rope.

Do this several times. The amount that you milk off should decrease as you continue to do this.

Tape the rope where the sheath and core overlap. Cut off the extra rope that you've milked.

As you climb you will probably notice that a bit more will milk off. After every climb run your friction hitch all of the way down the rope even if you do short climbs. This will help to strip off any loose sheath. You can tape and recut the end any time that you want. After a few climbs you'll find that the rope has stabilized.

Thanks Tom for the advise. I never had that rope milking problem but I climb mostly on Sportline and now have a 150 ft of Arbor Plex that I bought originally for lowering stuff (6000 lbs) but I have used it mostly for SRT climbs and It works well. I tried it on a Split tail system using prussik cord or with Tenex eye & eye(w/ advanced hitch) and it locks up on descend. So I changed to a Grigri. Arbor plex fits fairly tie in the Grigri but it allows for smooth controlled descends w/o overheating the rope or burning anything. Good inexpensive rope I think.

I also have a KMIII (New England made?) rope given to me by a cave climber and have used for SRT and it is nice but I have not used it that much. It is not flexible enough to put any type of climbing knots on it ( ie. Blake ). No Milking problems with that one either. The Grigri worked fine on descend on that "stiff" rope. I will get softer w/ more use.

The Gri Gri si not made to be used with A-Plex. Check out the rope diameter capactiy:

http://tinyurl.com/b3t8u

10-11mm only.

Half inch rope will fit in but th larger diameter rope will impeded the cam travel and that could lead to a fall or slip.

KMIII is very popular as an access line for SRT. I've used it for years and haven't found anything better. You're right, it doesn't handle knots very well but most static lines don't. If you use KMIII for a climbing line you will need to use a split tail made from a more supple cord.

Sportline and A-pex are hollow braid ropes so they will never have a milking issue.

Tenex isn't the best choice for a split tail. It is a bit too soft so it grabs. It is also not very durable. HRC from New England Ropes is very popular and durable.

3climber, rope milking, click this link…
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/greenbeltlodge/detail?.dir=f485&.dnm=aeeb.jpg&.src=ph

(Thank You Branch Mgr for posting that link to your photos)