Carabiner Confusion

Ok, I know I need to do more climbing and less head-scratching, but now I'm getting confused about the usefulness of the carabiners. As Moss has said, he keeps his two split-tails on thimbles on his pear-link, so then for typical DdRT why do I want or need any carabiners at all? What is the usefulness? All I need is a pear loaded with thimbles. What good are carabiners when you _have_ to untie the knots anyway? And when you are still on the ground you might as well open the pear-link if you want to walk away. Am I having another mental lapse? Thanks.

A lot of these questions will be answered as you continue to climb. I very rarely open my pear, only if I'm doing a major saddle configuration change. I only keep my second split tail on a thimble. My first split tail is on the front side of my legstrap D, connected with a biner. If your leg strap D is metal there is the possibility of cross-loading that biner during the climb. On the Tengu there is a soft legstrap D, it prevents the biner from rotating or reduces the opportunity greatly.

So why not hard attach everything to your harness (no biners)? Because when you do multi-pitch climbs you need to detach one side of the rope to advance it to the next pitch. So hard attachments are desirable to reduce biner clutter but you also want the flexibility to quickly detach and re-attach the rope when it's appropriate.

There is no one right way, there are safe ways and there is your personal style configuration which develops as you solve problems that you encounter while climbing.
-moss

moss wrote:

So why not hard attach everything to your harness (no biners)? Because when you do multi-pitch climbs you need to detach one side of the rope to advance it to the next pitch. So hard attachments are desirable to reduce biner clutter but you also want the flexibility to quickly detach and re-attach the rope when it's appropriate.

Well Moss, I apologize for spending too much time puzzling. It seemed to me that once I was climbing the only time I would want to quickly detach something it would be a lanyard. Otherwise with typical DdRT I'd have to untie the knot anyway. Maybe that isn't true. In fact maybe I need to review how Peter leaves things on the DVD as he starts climbing the 2nd pitch.

. In fact maybe I need to review how Peter leaves things on the DVD as he starts climbing the 2nd pitch.

Peter's video does not show split tails climbing or any advanced configuration. The video is called \"Basic Tree Climbing\" for that reason. The advanced techniques would probably be presented in a later video ( I hope since he did a great job on the fisrt one.) it would be a shame to allow all that experience to go to waste if he does not record another video for future climbers. IMHO.

Back to the point: Yes, you definitely want to use carbiners while climbing for safety and for convenience.

I imagine that one can climb in any way one thinks is ok but that is not what we try to teach all the new climbers for their safety and to keep our Safety record intact. ( 25 years without any serious accident for Recreational Climbers that have been properly trained)

What Moss has on his lanyard is not a typical set up but an advanced set that he developed and has becomed proficient in using. His personal preference and that is Ok with us since he is a properly Trained Facilitator. I have soemting similar I developed and it works for my personal style of climbing.

Here is my lanyard

oldtimer wrote:

Peter's video does not show split tails climbing

Oops, Ok, so indeed Peter had to untie everything when starting for the 2nd TIP while with a split-tail the Blakes might/should be preservable, however I don't think a carabiner would help much with this, although maybe it would help you move the extra Blake's to a side or rear accessory beltloop.

oldtimer:

Back to the point: Yes, you definitely want to use carbiners while climbing for safety and for convenience.

Ok, I have thought of one reason you might want to quickly disconnect and reconnect with a carabiner -- you might not have isolated a single branch for your TIP and might need to switch back and forth to a lanyard to get around a few lower branches.

oldtimer:

I imagine that one can climb in any way one thinks is ok but that is not what we try to teach all the new climbers for their safety and to keep our Safety record intact. ( 25 years without any serious accident

I'm just trying to settle on a rational but minimal starting point that I can stay with for a good while. I don't see any reason to not use a plain 1/2 inch split-tail to help preserve my rope -- but on the other hand I don't want a bunch of things in the mix that don't serve a real logical purpose, and also I'm not happy with the idea of a clanking pile of carabiners providing the ability to quickly disconnect from things that I'll never want to disconnect. I do plan to make a double-ended lanyard similar to yours. Thanks.

I have been wondering about the split tail being directly on the pear. Personally I climb with two split tails and both ends of my rope, essentially using my whole climb line as a big double lanyard. Split tail and rope end are on the same carabiner. Each end has it's own carabiner.
(I don't currently own a lanyard, but I hear tell that santa claus might be dropping me off an ART Positioner with spliced on snap from Sherrill. )

So, when I change tie ins I use the other end of my rope to set a new tie in, snug up the blakes for that end of the rope untill my weight is on it, then I release the old tie in, slip the rope end off of the carabiner and let it hang from an accessory loop or side D from the split tail like a lanyard, ready to loop over the next branch. After which I simply slide the rope back onto the carabiner, move it back to my pear link, and snug it up.

If my split tails were on my pear, it would always be there. I like to move it to my back accessory loop most of the time so that it's WAY out of the way. I use the side D's if it's just a quick adjustment. Even though I only use two carabiners, they are still in the way and bulky if I don't move them to the side. (there are other times when I'm actively using two tie ins that it doesn't bother me at all, so go figure)

Not having any carabiners would get you by, but it wouldn't leave any room for improvisation if something unexpected were to happen. I have three biners, two are always busy, and the third almost always finds a job somewhere (usualy to munter down out of the tree.)

Carl

Culinarytracker wrote:

santa claus might be dropping me off an ART Positioner

Oh God. I'd like to see your gear pile to understand how that goofball thing could possibly be next on your list.

After which I simply slide the rope back onto the carabiner, move it back to my pear link, and snug it up.

Ok, but is this with an eyed rope? I'm thinking I'll still have to untie the end at each pitch. Don't want anything getting snagged on the TIP.

If my split tails were on my pear, it would always be there. I like to move it to my back accessory loop

That is what I finally realized. And you might need to go around a branch. Considering that I like your idea of two carabiners with two thimbles each.

Davej wrote:

I'm just trying to settle on a rational but minimal starting point that I can stay with for a good while...

That's the right way to look at getting started with climbing, keep it simple. I climbed traditional Blake's no split tail for at least my first two years of climbing. I wouldn't worry about preserving the end of your rope with a split tail, in two years I never needed to cut the end of my rope from wear from the Blake's.
-moss

Davej Wrote:

Ok, but is this with an eyed rope? I'm thinking I'll still have to untie the end at each pitch. Don't want anything getting snagged on the TIP.

One end of my rope is eye spliced, and has a cambium protector on it. The other end has a figure eight loop. I find myself using the end with the knot more as a lanyard, because I don't like to run it over branches any more than I have to. My main climb and my descent are ALWAYS done with the spliced side and cambium protector. When I was first starting to climb, I injured a branch in my favorite tree pretty bad by climbing on it without friction protection. Don't want to do that again.

I've never had the knot get stuck while moving around in the tree. Granted, my usual climbing trees have branches that I could slide about anything over. I use mini-carabiners, and leave the throwbag on my throwline to pull my rope over. Some trees can grab things more, and you may have a good point there.

Almost every kind of friction saver requires an overhand knot to pull it out of the tree anyway. I guess if you're worried about it getting stuck on the way down, the correct method would be to involve a throwline to control it's fall. I've never done that and only once has my cambium protector been hung up in the tree. Luckily it was in a tree in my own yard, and gave me an excuse to do a night climb to recover it.

Like most things, it comes down to the situation at hand. Also, sometimes a stuck line can give a unique challenge and purpose to the climb. Other times it can be so frustrating you just want to *^%#&*%^^#&^%. Which is usually how I end up feeling at some point on wilderness climbs.

That is what I finally realized. And you might need to go around a branch. Considering that I like your idea of two carabiners with two thimbles each.

I hope it works out for you. As a side note, I did come across one potential danger with this method that someone mentioned in a forum somewhere. If you are cutting any branches, or dropping anything out of the tree that could hit the loop hanging below you, it could hurt pretty bad. A rare situation in rec climbing, but a good tid-bit anyhow. You don't want to climb on the wrong side of a branch either, or you'll have to pull the whole rope down around it.

Oh God. I'd like to see your gear pile to understand how that goofball thing could possibly be next on your list.

(the ART positioner)

I don't have a whole lot of gear, Just a rope, saddle, two split tails and three carabiners, two throwlines, a line mug and a helmet. (A perfect starting pack in my opinion and experience.) A good safety lanyard is a high priority I think. The Positioner is a Goofball? I've never heard 1 review of any ART product anywhere, so maybe. They look like a pretty good choice, especially when it's not my money. I would love to hear more opinions before it's ordered.

Also on the wish list are:
CMI Rescue 8
Large Petzl Swivel
couple carabiners
new tribe zippered climbing bucket
new tribe grapnel
8oz throwbag
loop runners
prusik loop cord (to try secured footlock)
a pair of arborwear pants,
and two 1/4\" delta links to make my saddle fit better (thanks for the idea Moss)


Ok, I'm getting a little long winded here, so I'm going to stop.

Carl

Culinarytracker wrote:

The Positioner is a Goofball? I've never heard 1 review of any ART product anywhere, so maybe. They look like a pretty good choice, especially when it's not my money. I would love to hear more opinions before it's ordered.

It's an excellent device but an adjustable lanyard can be done very effectively and much more cheaply with a micropulley, 8mm prussik cord, a length of 11mm climbing rope and a couple of biners:





Here's more detail , the lanyard is derived from J~Bird's lanyard in the Tree Climber's Coalition articles section. The friction hitch is a Knut, I now use an XT for the hitch. I've since substituted the Petzl Fixe pulley for a CMI Micropulley (more versatile). I've been climbing on the lanyard for 3 years.
-moss

Culinarytracker wrote:

The Positioner is a Goofball? I've never heard 1 review of any ART product anywhere, so maybe. They look like a pretty good choice, especially when it's not my money. I would love to hear more opinions before it's ordered.

What do you want to use this for?

What do you want to use this for?

Well, as a lanyard of course, just like the one Moss has shown.
I understand that way cheaper options are available here. But I'm assuming that the mechanical version would have it's definite advantages. So take the money out of the equation, and \"Why not?\" become my question. Also it's a cheaper way to test out the A.R.T. quality than buying a lockjack or spyderjack.

It may be a waste of money, and if that's the case, I'll definitely let everyone know.

Carl

Culinarytracker wrote:

What do you want to use this for?

Well, as a lanyard of course, just like the one Moss has shown.

Ooooops. I thought you were referring to the ART Rope guide. Totally different thing... my bad.

Whoa. $190? Moss might be willing to price-match on that.

Hey Carl, you should try the \"Trango Cinch\" for $69 bucks you provide the lanyard rope and 2 carabiners (see page 34 for Sherrills catalog) and the Trango can be used as a ascender/descender (similar operation like a Grigri) not just as a lanyard adjustter. It does the same thing for less than half the price and you get a more versatile tool than the ART positioner. My 2 cents.
If money is not a limitation go for it.

The more gear you have the heavier your Saddle! (or somehting like that)

Can someone tell me how often you would want a fancy lanyard such as the ART? My gut tells me that these are really for pros using spurs and working fast. All I need or want from a lanyard is hip-adjustability. I am very unlikely to be struggling so much that I need bi-directional adjustability under tension. Or am I crazy?