Carabiner Confusion

Davej wrote:

Can someone tell me how often you would want a fancy lanyard such as the ART? My gut tells me that these are really for pros using spurs and working fast. All I need or want from a lanyard is hip-adjustability. I am very unlikely to be struggling so much that I need bi-directional adjustability under tension. Or am I crazy?

\"Bi-directional adjustability\" under load is a very good thing but is also there with the lanyard design I posted. I gave up on using a Prusik Knot on my lanyard when I got into a pickle a few years back while out on a limb walk and did not have two hands available to loosen the lanyard hitch (A Prusik tends to seize after it's heavily loaded).

Remember that all of these pre-configured lanyards in the arb supplier catalogs are geared for work climbers to anchor on the side D's and place around the trunk, notice the long piece of tube webbing (wear protection) on the ART Positioner. For rec climbing it is more typical for the lanyard to be a miniature climbing system available to be placed as backup on a limb during a switchover or for positioning help when performing a task in the tree like rigging a treeboat or doing work with a handsaw. It's very rare for me to find a reason to anchor my lanyard on my side D's.

The ART Positioner is a worker climber oriented tool. It works fine for a rec climber as well, I'd shorten the webbing wear protector quite a bit (I don't do takedowns) or more likely replace it with a short conduit sleeve.

This brings up another subject, beware of translating work climber gear and technique directly to rec climbing. While there is much in common, the methods and goals are very different. Rec climbers have evolved tree climbing on a slightly divergent path which make sense since the reason for being in the tree is completely different. Form follows function.
-moss

Yes, you are crazy. There is not reason to question a climbers desire for fancy gear specially since they are able to afford it.
I have personally purchased many pieces of gear that may not be designed for REC Climbers but they work fine for my taste. Remember this is still a free country and every one has the right to own whatever they see fit their taste. I would not personally purchase a Mercedes Benz but I would not criticize my friends for having one. More power to them!

Moss Wrote:

Remember that all of these pre-configured lanyards in the arb supplier catalogs are geared for work climbers to anchor on the side D's and place around the trunk, notice the long piece of tube webbing (wear protection) on the ART Positioner. For rec climbing it is more typical for the lanyard to be a miniature climbing system available to be placed as backup on a limb during a switchover or for positioning help when performing a task in the tree like rigging a treeboat or doing work with a handsaw. It's very rare for me to find a reason to anchor my lanyard on my side D's.

I still picture the positioner as a miniature climbing system. The hardware is nothing more than a fancy split tail. From what I hear, one that is smoother, and all around a step up from even the other mechanical split tails.

I do use a lanyard on one side d from time to time when I'm using it to steady myself standing on a limb while making a throwline throw. This is using one carabiner with split tail and rope end together. But never when my full weight would be on it.

I assume that the webbing on the positioner is 12\" since they say it adjusts from 1 to 10 feet.

The ART Positioner is a worker climber oriented tool. It works fine for a rec climber as well, I'd shorten the webbing wear protector quite a bit (I don't do takedowns) or more likely replace it with a short conduit sleeve.

I assumed that the webbing on the positioner is 12\" since they say it adjusts from 1 to 10 feet. I'll have to look into that more.

It comes all spliced up on both ends, so replacing things doesn't look too easy. I've been wondering how webbing works as a protector.

Carl

That is correct, the Positioner is a miniature climbing system (short rope), I was off on a tangent talking about all the different pre-made lanyards available to buy. Some of them aren't so great. The Positioner is versatile and covers all the bases. I just wanted to point out that you could make a lanyard that's very close to the Positioner in functionality and will weigh less.

Based on the stated working lengths (1-10 ft.)The webbing must compress down like a hair \"scrunchy\" so it doesn't matter how long it is. From what I've seen webbing works well as a cambium/rope protector on a lanyard. I may try it on mine.

I wouldn't worry about the spliced ends, if the rope wears out you just get a new rope and have it spliced or splice it yourself.

I'm sure it will make an excellent lanyard for you. We're all green with envy.

The only remaining caveat is the length. I like my lanyard to be 20 ft. Then I find myself in situations where I wish it was 25'. You have to draw the line somewhere You might try making yourself a simple 10 ft. adjustable lanyard and see if that length works for you before committing to the ART lanyard. Another way to look at it is you can always swap out the 10 ft. rope for a longer one later if you decide you need it
-moss


Culinarytracker wrote:

I still picture the positioner as a miniature climbing system. The hardware is nothing more than a fancy split tail. From what I hear, one that is smoother, and all around a step up from even the other mechanical split tails.

I do use a lanyard on one side d from time to time when I'm using it to steady myself standing on a limb while making a throwline throw. This is using one carabiner with split tail and rope end together. But never when my full weight would be on it.

I assume that the webbing on the positioner is 12\" since they say it adjusts from 1 to 10 feet.

The ART Positioner is a worker climber oriented tool. It works fine for a rec climber as well, I'd shorten the webbing wear protector quite a bit (I don't do takedowns) or more likely replace it with a short conduit sleeve.

I assumed that the webbing on the positioner is 12\" since they say it adjusts from 1 to 10 feet. I'll have to look into that more.

It comes all spliced up on both ends, so replacing things doesn't look too easy. I've been wondering how webbing works as a protector.

Carl

Culinarytracker wrote:

Almost every kind of friction saver requires an overhand knot to pull it out of the tree anyway. I guess if you're worried about it getting stuck on the way down, the correct method would be to involve a throwline to control it's fall. I've never done that and only once has my cambium protector been hung up in the tree.

Shaggy bark seems to catch stuff. I've been putting the \"sleeve knockdown knot\" a good distance from the end of the rope so that the sleeve just slides down the rope before the rope falls.

Culinarytracker wrote:

I don't have a whole lot of gear, Just a rope, saddle, two split tails and three carabiners, two throwlines, a line mug and a helmet.

Sounds respectable. I noted that there are no ascenders on your wish list, foot or otherwise. I am still a little puzzled by the \"lanyard as miniature climbing system\" idea. I mean I just can't quite see myself using one in that way. Plus I think of lanyards as being short while Moss makes them 20+ ft long and climbs huge pines. Also maybe it's just because I haven't tried limb walking.

oldtimer wrote:

Yes, you are crazy. There is not reason to question a climbers desire for fancy gear specially since they are able to afford it.

Hmmm. I would think there is every reason to ask. How else would you ferret out what features are really needed and which ones are considered luxuries?

Davej wrote:

I am still a little puzzled by the \"lanyard as miniature climbing system\" idea. I mean I just can't quite see myself using one in that way. Plus I think of lanyards as being short while Moss makes them 20+ ft long

When I say \"minature climbing system\" I'm just referring to the length of the rope. If you have an adjustable lanyard with a friction hitch (or Positioner hardware) it functions the same as your long rope or primary climbing system. For many of my climbs I never bring up the other end of my long rope for a second tie-in, my lanyard takes care of that, which is why I like it 20 ft. I alternate between my lanyard and main system to advance. However when a traverse is needed, the other end of the main climbing rope is brought into play.

That's what I mean by the differences in rec and work climbing approach, my lanyard is primarily the other half of my ascent system, and a positioning/safety backup system after that (the traditional use in work climbing).

I'm mentioning this stuff not because I think you should climb the way I climb but to demonstrate available options. Every climber invents their own variations after they establish the safe basics in their climbing.
-moss

moss wrote:

For many of my climbs I never bring up the other end of my long rope for a second tie-in, my lanyard takes care of that, which is why I like it 20 ft. I alternate between my lanyard and main system to advance. However when a traverse is needed, the other end of the main climbing rope is brought into play.

A traverse is where you want to hang somewhere between two TIPs? Do you ever do that with the lanyard as a third TIP?

Davej Wrote:

Sounds respectable. I noted that there are no ascenders on your wish list, foot or otherwise.

I'm the type of guy that only likes to buy things once. A Blakes hitch and a good footlocking technique moves me around the tree amazingly well. Especially since Moss clued me into the single foot lock, it works so well that I can't help but think that a foot ascender would be more in the way than helpful. Also there's no trees around here tall enough to tempt me into SRT. I do want to try a little secured footlocking, so ascenders might end up in my future.


I just wish I could try more things, such as lockjacks or spyderjacks without paying in advance. I'm really surprised that there doesn't seem to be ANY reviews or reports of any kind about these toys. Maybe I need to search the more pro oriented forums.

Carl

Davej Wrote:

A traverse is where you want to hang somewhere between two TIPs? Do you ever do that with the lanyard as a third TIP?

Traverse is a horizontal climb between two trees, or TIPs within a tree yes. Many times I would love to have a third TIP during more technical parts of a climb, or for comfort when I'm trying to throw my throwbag in a wierd position. I've done this with a loop runner at times. Operating on two TIPs often times helps keep my healthy paranoia under check, and a third can ABSOLUTELY lock you in place if that's what you need.

Moss Wrote:

For many of my climbs I never bring up the other end of my long rope for a second tie-in, my lanyard takes care of that, which is why I like it 20 ft.

Great point. I think I'd like it however long I can comfortably throw the rope over a branch without a throwline.
Sherrill should surely be able to make it any length.

I've also decided that I don't want the snap spliced on. I originally thought it was such a nice quick attachment method that I'd use it more. However, I don't like throwing metal around in the tree when I don't have to, (I am guilty of not always using a helmet in my nice tame sycamore) and trilock carabiners work quickly enough for me. I'm not sure, but I'd also like to keep the hardware and the rope end on the same carabiner if that's an option, should be.

BTW, this has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate the opinions and deliberations.

Carl

Davej wrote:

A traverse is where you want to hang somewhere between two TIPs? Do you ever do that with the lanyard as a third TIP?

Yes, a traverse is setting a new TIP while remaining attached to your existing TIP top to move horizontally within the tree or to another tree.

Note: Whenever you set a second TIP whether with a lanyard or the other end of your climbing rope you NEVER release the initial TIP without completely loading and testing the new TIP. That means slacking the primary TIP enough that you are loading the second TIP 100%. This assumes that you've done a good assessment of your second TIP as well.

Yes (to the second question), on a climb last weekend I was on a traverse and started with my lanyard as third tie-in (talk about security!). This is because I would've swung out into a dead branch if I just went with two settings, the lanyard allowed me to move in a controlled way towards the natural hang point between the two settings, without smacking into a dead limb in an uncontrolled swing.
-moss

Culinarytracker wrote:

I just wish I could try more things, such as lockjacks or spyderjacks without paying in advance. I'm really surprised that there doesn't seem to be ANY reviews or reports of any kind about these toys. Maybe I need to search the more pro oriented forums.

Either rec climbers who have them aren't talking or not many rec climbers are using them (too pricey for the functionality). The worse thing I heard about a Spider or Lockjack (can't remember which) was that a climber had the release knob get wedged in his connecting biner which put him into semi-permanent descent mode. Belay hand on the tail comes in very handy at that moment.
-moss

Culinarytracker wrote:

Great point. I think I'd like it however long I can comfortably throw the rope over a branch without a throwline.
Sherrill should surely be able to make it any length.

I've also decided that I don't want the snap spliced on. I originally thought it was such a nice quick attachment method that I'd use it more. However, I don't like throwing metal around in the tree when I don't have to, (I am guilty of not always using a helmet in my nice tame sycamore) and trilock carabiners work quickly enough for me. I'm not sure, but I'd also like to keep the hardware and the rope end on the same carabiner if that's an option, should be.

Thanks for the correct traverse definition, I didn't see it before I posted the same.

I frequently make a monkey fist with my lanyard to advance it.

I don't like rope snaps for my climbing style. A snap is way too heavy and I don't want to get one in the face. That's why I won't use a steel biner on a lanyard either. I watched a friend (experienced climber) take a steel biner in the face when he was pulling his lanyard back over a branch, big ouch.

A regular tri-act biner works great on a lanyard. I wrap the biner in a monkey fist when I'm throwing. When I'm pulling a lanyard back over a branch, if I have the slightest doubt that the biner will hang, or that it might become a projectile aimed at my face, then I take the biner off the lanyard and then pull the rope back. I don't like splices (sorry Nick ) on my ropes or lanyards. There are times when I want the cleanest possible rope end coming back over the branch. It's very easy to tie the biner back on to the lanyard.
-moss

Moss Wrote:

Either rec climbers who have them aren't talking or not many rec climbers are using them (too pricey for the functionality). The worse thing I heard about a Spider or Lockjack (can't remember which) was that a climber had the release knob get wedged in his connecting biner which put him into semi-permanent descent mode. Belay hand on the tail comes in very handy at that moment.

Ok, I did some looking on the Buzz Board, and saw that problem with the sport. Also, everything else people were saying about them seemed like they could be a big headache sometimes. Especially this: They completely release when you take your weight off of it. I guess that this means when you step up onto a limb, it releases and slides down the rope as far as it can if you don't hold it. In fact, I'm not even sure if it can be put on midline or not.

I'm sure it's a great tool, it's definately a great idea, but for now I'll stick with hitches, even in my dreams.


Carl

I just wish I could try more things, such as lockjacks or spyderjacks without paying in advance. I'm really surprised that there doesn't seem to be ANY reviews or reports of any kind about these toys. Maybe I need to search the more pro oriented forums.

Carl try to find out when one of the local chapters of ISA or some of the local climbing competitions will take place near your area and go visit one. Those arborists and the Gear sellers are all there and they will likely allow you to try almost anything if you ask nicely (Check with jersey girl) she hangs around those guys/gals a lot and she has become a better climber and used a lot of their fancy gear before she decides to buy it or decide if it is worth buying by talking to a professional Arborist. Most of those guys are very friendly and willing to show you their gear sets. Also read and see regularly the posting at Treebuzz and they have these long discussion with all points of view interjected. From the minimalist climber to the gear freaks that need to have the latest stuff. They all post there or read at Tree World In Australia (nice web board).

I ususally try to attend one of those get togethers once or twice per year if they are nearby and you can just attend for free and see the show. It is open to the public most of the time.

We have not posted reviews on that type of fancy gear because we do not have access or because we do not use it in REC climbs but if you buy something and become a user contact Patty and ask her to allow you to post a review based on your experiences.

moss wrote:

I like my lanyard to be 20 ft. Then I find myself in situations where I wish it was 25'. You have to draw the line somewhere

I originally thought the double-ended lanyard would be the most secure way to go, and that these long lanyards were really more for SRT; but now I'm beginning to waver. If I use both ends of the main rope to two TIPs then in addition to that I don't know why a double-ended lanyard would be needed. In what situation would someone prefer a double-ended lanyard?