something for TCI to think about

Treeman and all TCI instructors and facilitators,

Pay to post? I'm absolutely amazed. You are taking a step to doom your website to irrelevancy.

I find this move astounding, and should make it clear it is insulting that you (meaning TCI) would choose to do such a thing. Look at this posting thread. Between myself, Tom, Jim, and Nick, we account for TWENTY PERCENT of the activity on your board. That's only four members!

So, PAY ATTENTION, the writing is on your computer screen! You are on the verge of slipping farther away from the dominant position you aspire to!

This is the longest post I've ever put on your board, and it appears that due to the proposed changes to your setup, it will be the last. I will not join TCI as a member; the 2.8% of postings posted under redpanda are not a privelege worth anything monetarily. In fact, I liked to think that I that I was actually contributing something!

By way of goodbye I would like to respectfully offer my view on the relevancy of TCI. Perhaps it was time for me to ruffle some feathers, and I hope TCI members are mature enough to accept some opinions from far outside your sphere of influence. I look forward to meeting some of you one day,and appreciate the networking made on this forum, and hope you do not feel too personally insulted by what follows, or that I am being a little too egotistical and presumptuous. There have been several similar, impassioned messages like this one posted on this site, and before long everyone will have moved on from the few minutes its taking you to read it. But, most importantly, I'll know I have finally come out and contributed my completely external, and perhaps unwanted, suggestions on TCI's future.

I participate on these www forums from another country. There are only two stars next to my name, but I will get quite angry if anyone casts my abilities simply because I have not taken a TCI basic, facilitators, or instructors course. In the SE corner of Australia on the island of Tasmania, we have the tallest and biggest angiosperm forests and trees in the world. I have a few years climbing in these trees. I know dozens of people who have safely climbed and descended these trees for a variety of reasons, and I am positive that most are far less obsessed with rope skills than me. We also have world class rockclimbing, and caving, vertical search and rescue, cave rescue exercises, and several commercial abseiling/rapping opportunities, and I am thankful enough to have the energy and time to be involved in these ropes-linked pursuits. I know I have put in a great deal of time and energy into self training and participating in discussions, and that I have done so to a level that I feel self-certified.
I have never met anyone in person who has taken TCI courses. Yet by adopting the name T.C. International, you have taken on the role of the worldwide umbrella group. The responsibility of that role is to effectively assume a leadership position, not to work on an exclusive club. Optimally, a leadership position requires both fostering beginners, and being involved with the cutting edge.

I know that you want TCI to be the best, and brightest, but your exclusive approach to techique, and, it appears, conversation makes TCI a poor candidate for this leadership role.

Recent threads have outlined some excellent steps for TCI, and have highlighted some reluctance to take those steps. *Publish the manual*, freely as a .pdf file, and become the acknowledged experts. Look at Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills. It established the Seattle Mountaineers lub as the premier training organizaation in the English language world. If you fail to share your manuals, it just makes others more perplexed that you insist on handing out certifications. How do I know what your facilitators and instructors ribbons mean if I don't know what checklist they passed to gain them? Individually, the members of TCI have much to offer, and surely recognize the value of sharing it. But if the organization as a whole stagnates in that regard, you will watch the cutting edge pass you by quickly.

Closing off your message board would be a sure sign you are not willing to integrate outside opinion or experiences. Your membership is obviously centred around Atlanta, and your organizations time in trees is probably quite heavy on the SE USA species. Yet if you close your forums off to visitors from other countries, and declare yourself the International organization, you are missing out on the rest of the magic tree types around the rest of the world. What experience do TCI members have in climbing blackwoods or Lagarostrobus or Adansonia or Tingle trees or Swamp Gums or Karris or Kauris? Why would you close off your forums to the people who do? I've studied trees in which the lowest branch is TWICE as high as the top of Nimrod in the Founders Grove, and in species that have never grown naturally in the northern hemisphere. I wouldn't necessarily take that to mean I have experience in white oaks, or pine trees. Yet when your message board closes off, I will have to inquire about those tree types from other sources. TCi-forums will have a reduced population of members, less activity, less scope, less vision, less creativity, fewer ideas, and ultimately less relevancy. It would be a waste of money.

I have met several people who have climbed giant, towering trees who have never heard of your organization, and will never take your classes, respect your certifications, or appreciate that you are THE academy. I'd like to have one of your ribbons, but it would cost me hundreds of dollars and open few doors. I'm proud of the trees I've climbed, measured, studied, and appreciated. Learning about rope and tree skills on the web has been a major advantage in doing this safely. But the actual amount of information TCI offers is disappointingly small. Every so often some good tips come up on the site, and most of my posts have tried to spark or encourage that. I prowl the web regularly for any new skills in treeclimbing, because I am absolutely terrified of those old, decayed Eucalyptus trees, and because I am responsible for those lovely field assistants climbing them with me. By swallowing every last bit of technique I can rest easier knowing that we are using the best possible practice to get us down safe. Same basic reasons everyone wants to learn more.

However, in the final judgement, I don't use any of your techniques. I don't even really know what your techniques are! It seems there is an amazing inability to describe what you do. (The slip knot tied regularly below the novice's DdRT hitch is exceedingly elegant, by the way.)

Go look at the post on anchoring a rope that I place in the technique forum (28-10-04), and see how many serious responses there have been.

As an archive, or a resource, TCI has NOTHING for me except this web board. There is not even a listing of relevant knots for motivated prospective students to brush up on in advance. The general public can go browse the library of a university, and the librarians will encourage the practice. Even though the university may risk losing a potential tuition-paying student by allowing them to read the material, it is more likely that this motivated library visitor will be excited enough to follow through with the formal training.

It is impressive and commendable your energy and efforts in fostering new experiences for complete novices. Its fantastic, and surely a dream come true! However, to be an effective leader, you need to also be willing to increase the skills and knowledge within your own organization, and on a greater scale, within the entire discipline. Consider renaming TCI to the "Atlanta Treeclimbing Academy," if it is not able to handle this responsibility.

Treeman- Facilitate excellence in the discipline, and be stronger in regards to all the threats about TCI's legitimacy, threats from porno pushers, and threats to your liability from new, potentially dangerous and unapproved techniques. As the others wrote, thanks for briefly fostering what would eventually become a substantial resource. But truly, the bandwidth and energy you spend on the WWW forums will pay you back a thousandfold by being the forum.

Closing your www forum to non members posting is an amazingly foolish step, and I am calling you on it, Peter. Don't sully TCI's WWW reputation any more than it already has been. You've done a great job in the discipline and obviously sparked a passion in many fantastic teachers. Now publish the manual, foster the forums, and proudly share it with climbers around the world!

The cutting edge of treeclimbing won't stay still...

Thank you, redpanda, for your very thoughtful comments!

Only one who apparently cares deeply for treeclimbing and for TCI would have taken the time to do what you did. I have no doubt but that there are many others who simply will shrug their shoulders, mutter, and leave.

I certainly hope that TCI reconsiders the decision to charge us to provide information--to help each other learn--to help each other climb safely.

I have made several posts encouraging TCI (or anyone) to publish publish publish. And now this? Information will be even MORE limited?

Sad.

Very sad.

Is this a done deal? Are there any other options. I agree with the others, this message board will die. Can you start selling ad space? I mean, a man has to make a living. Is defeating the porno posts people worth killing this board? Are they that hard to keep out?

I will reply to this thread shortly. I am in the middle of a project and want to write a thoughtful response. Thanks for your honest opinions.

Thanks, Treeman. I have no doubt but that you will do what really has to be done for the best of our activity, while still keeping the necessities of this board and TCI in mind.

I know that it costs money to keep such a board (and such an organization) running. This board is of such high quality as it is; I hope there is a way to keep it running without imposing a fee.

Might there be another way to have the necessary funding without the required fee? I know of some other boards that manage solely on voluntary contributions and/or sponsorships.

I don't want to belabor this, so will stop at that. I just want to point out that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Thanks for the service you provide.

go redpanda. i felt it. i love the energy attached to what you said

I was a hippie in the late 60’-70’s. I was very idealistic, believing more in love than the power of war. I ran a “crash pad”. A crash pad was a sort of safe house, where a fellow hippie could sleep for the night and get a meal in the morning. Sleeping was often on the floor which was acceptable, because it was safely off the streets.

My place eventually became overcrowded and difficult to maintain financially. I was working during the days, and being a good person during the evenings with my brethren nonconformists. My cooking wasn’t exceptional, but I could cook for big numbers.

There finally came a breaking point. I could no longer do what I was doing without support. So I asked that they put into the pot a small amount to keep things going. Outrage!! How could I? Everything should be free! I’ve submitted to the establishment!
I didn’t budge.

Quite a few people left in a huff. Some remained and started helping. It taught me that less is sometimes more.

I won't be paying to stay. I wasn't going to post to explain why, because I've never really felt like I was an important part of this community, and I don't imagine anybody will really care if I go or not.

However, two posts made me change my mind about explaining. First, I don't want Jim W to think of me as one who just doesn't care, one of those "who will simply shrug their shoulders, mutter, and leave." Second, Kernsloth seemed almost to be inviting me when he said, "I wonder what climbers outside the U.S. will think."

I guess I feel pretty much the same way as redpanda. Although, of course, being Canadian and not Australian I'm not so brash and assertive.
Although I appreciate Treeman's comment that TCI is "more than a mere message board", I hope he can appreciate that for people like me, redpanda, stevebullman, and now bareroots, that IS all TCI is. We will likely never take one of your courses, your work toward establishing national standards won't affect us in our nations, your lobbying for access to trees on public lands won't have anything to do with our governments, and even your coupons for discounts at American businesses won't save us any money after paying shipping and customs fees. Despite the "I" in TCI, you really don't have much to offer members from outside your country.

I have really enjoyed this forum and those people who contribute to it. I wouldn't visit it,and you all, on a daily basis if I didn't. However, beyond a few good tips now and then, this site is definitely not the best there is for learning how to climb, and what information there is on here isn't usually provided by the TCI insiders, but by outside contibutors. The strength of this site is the socializing and sharing. And, of course, the networking, which is another thing that doesn't much benefit foreigners.

I am becoming a self-taught climber (the main reason that I don't always feel welcome on this forum), and I am very eager to learn all I can. TCI won't publish instructional material, and now they want me to pay $20 (25 of my $) simply to ask an occasional question. Can you blame me for concluding that maybe this isn't the best place for me to learn? Why wouldn't I choose to spend more time on other forums which provide more information, for free, without passing judgement on me for self-teaching? I feel a bit hurt that Patty Jenkins somehow considers this "defecting". Patty, with all due respect, TCI is not the tree climbing community, it is only part of the tree climbing community.

Anyway, that's how I feel. I am truly sorry if I have insulted or angered anybody. You are all great people, and I harbour no ill will. Treeman, it all comes to this:
I can understand where you are coming from with your metaphor of the "crash pad." Can you understand that I, redpanda, stevebullman, bareroots, etc., are not sleeping on your floor and eating your food. We are only dropping by to chat on the porch, and people aren't usually asked to pay for that.

Sincerely,
Brad

If you were indeed just dropping by as in my crash pad story, and wanted directions before going on your way (upwards that is, in your case), you would seize the opportunity to ask questions before departing, no? Many people wait to get whatever they are waiting for. You are encouraged here to ask your questions and initiate topics rather than scrounge through the threads waiting for something useful for yourself.

TCI works with people worldwide. How could you know this? You are not in the front office. Maybe you could ask a few questions here. What ARE you waiting for, fellow climber?

From Dietley

TCI is not the tree climbing community, it is only part of the tree climbing community.

Numerous websites in numerous countries are discussing tree climbing. The equipment and techniques are readily available, making a time honored experience more safe. The future will be strong for the tree climbing community.

Regards,
JimK

Dietley

TCI is international in scope. Please check the online newsleter at the end. It is free for viewing. You will notice two Asian TCI trained and affiliated groves. They came here to get their training.

We can travel to other countries but it is much more cost effectove to come here. We have designated climbing trees and lots of gear here. Any tree we train in must be clean of dead wood and tested for obvious reasons.

There are books out on technique, "Climbers Companion" being a very good one. Jeff Jepson, the author, was an early TCI student.

Do a search on recreational tree climbing and you will find sites available, as previously mentioned.

Treeman, I'm sorry if I've given the impression that I just recently found out about tree climbing, and am already prepared to dump on you without knowing anything. I call myself a novice, and say that I am in the process of self-teaching, because I'm not arrogant enough to pass myself off as an expert. I am not, however, a naive wannabe. I've been obsessed with this wonderful activity for two years now, during which time I have read Dick Flowers' and Jeff Jepson's books almost to death, read most of On Rope, downloaded every on-line article I could find, and have regularly visited ArborSite and Treebuzz. I always check out any website mentioned in threads, and I have been on this site virtually every day since it was revamped, and regularly visited the old forum. I have sought out advice from several experts, some of whom I "met" here. Last, but not least, I have more than fifty climbs documented in my log book.

If I haven't actually posted on this forum as often as I could, it was not from lack of questions, but because I quickly learned that some types of questions are best not asked here. You say people are encouraged to ask questions on this forum, but I say not always.

What am I waiting for? I'm not just passively waiting. When I say that it's unlikely that I will ever take one of your courses, it's because I have checked out the price of your courses and added it to the cost of flying down to you, renting a car, finding a place to stay, etc. Realizing that I couldn't afford that route, I then investigated the possibility of having you come to me. I exchanged several emails with Tengu on the subject, and realized, as you say, that this is even more expensive. I'm not going to bore you with the various reasons why I can't afford your training, but I just can't.

I am fully aware that you have affiliated groves in two Asian countries. Are you suggesting I go there for training? I hope you aren't suggesting that if I can't afford to go to Georgia for basic training, maybe instead I could make it to do basic training, facilitator training, and instructor training, then form my own grove here at home!

I would like to hold TCI certification, no doubt about it. Since that just isn't feasible right now, I had hoped that the next best thing would be to self-teach with the aid of TCI. You don't encourage this, however, you won't publish instructional material, and the amount of information on this site is not as great as that of the books or the arborist sites. My unwillingness to pay to post is not some knee-jerk act of petulance. I don't expect you to like my decision, nor to enjoy the criticism, but please, at least give me credit for making a reasoned and informed choice.

Brad

There is nothing wrong with self taught. Dick Flowers was self taught from my first publication. You can indeed self teach yourself. I took to the trees in 1978 with nothing but rock climbing training and luckily survived tree work much on a trial and error basis- until I hired a couple of climbers that also taught me more.

I have yet to delete a posting here from content. I personally value free speech. If we have differences in opinions, wellllll, that's part of life. Just don't say anything a child could read without parents getting upset- that's all I ask.

If you choose to hang out at another message board, that is your choice. I have nothing to say about that in a negative way. It is choice- that's all.

The peopel that come to TCI often have a career path of teaching tree climbing to others. That is why they travel so far. Casual climbers usually come from the States here.

Climb on, fellow climber. Come back if you feel so inclined.

Side subject that relates....(aka "Why I don't want Dietly to leave)....

(I don't remember all the deails exactly and some of the names may be wrong)
Couple years ago I had this goofy idea that I was gonna call the Dunce Cap. I didn't quite know how to make it work, but I think I posted something here about it. Dietly responded to me via email. He had some special non-tree skills that I might be interested. I hope this isn't to personal of information, but he is a machinist and offered some very good advice about material and construction, then offering to make prototypes when I had the plans ready. I didn't get far with that idea because it was just.....a bad one...but it was neat to meet Dietly this way. End of that story.

About a year ago I was asked by Icabod if I could splice something for him. It was a slack tender. Like where most people would want a pulley to use to tend the slack of their friction hitch, he wanted a tiny piece of rope with an eye on each end. He talked to me, and I was able to make something that worked. (a tiny, tiny 4" vectran eye and eye sling!)

Okay, so I mailed this thing to him thinking to myself, "maybe the strangest order I've ever had." Then I say to myself...might be worth a try. So I made one for me. I started using it and I liked it. It worked. Not perfect, but it worked.

So I was using that tiny rope slack tender for a while when I started getting a different (better?) idea in my head. I wanted a similar item, but made of aluminum. Hmmm, how much was this going to cost to make this? Where do I find someone to make something like this? I called a couple local machinists and they were of no help. These people were busy business-people who wanted to charge money just for talking (sounds familiar) to them. Then prototypes and planning and all sorts of stuff...I was looking at thousands of dollars just to try something out. Then it hit me. Dietley. I looked through some old emails and was eventually able to get a hold of him. And boy am I glad I found him. Through some miracle, I was able to convey to him what I was looking for. He built it. For free. He sent me 2 copies of 3 prototypes. I sent a copy of each one to Icabod, since he was the one who started it all by asking me to splice such a silly thing.

What's the point? I don't know. It's a neat story that was all made possible 100% by this website. Since getting those prototypes, I've had a few people around the country try them out with very, very good feedback. I have gotten professional plans drawn up (which cost more than 20 dollars!) and am going through the patent process (which is a pain in the ) One day I might be able to make a whole bunch of these and sell them for dirt-cheap (i'm not in it for the $)

Now we have an example of someone who's claimed he doesn't want to stick around because of the twenty dollars. I can't help but thinking that if this plan had been in place a year or 2 earlier...all this fun stuff and learning would have never happened.

We've got to find a way to make this work.

love
nick

First I will say, Dietley, I will miss your questions. You remind me of a younger, well...me (or maybe not so young! Lots of love!) TCI's site and in particular this message board (starting with the old one, what like 4 years ago now?) was critical to my becoming the climber I am today (even with my big mouth and "silly ideas")(by the way Nick, I don't want a cut, but remember me when you name this product, perhaps duncecap will work afterall!)

I've said it before, I paid my dues. But I respect, and regret, your decision. Stick around though, you've got my e-mail addy. I hope that in the future the work we are doing here (with our dues and our volunteered time) will make this more of an international force.

Brad, do you think you think perhaps you could pay your dues in something with a better exchange rate: hockey pucks, putine, maybe Canadian Bacon even...