Tree climbing vs. rock climbing/caving

I thought it might be useful to get people's assessment of the differences between tree climbing and rock climbing/caving as that is reflected in vertical technique. This pops up in various places on a lot of different forums, but perhaps it would be useful to assemble our collective wisdom on the matter into one thread. To get the ball rolling, here are a few thoughts:

- Long ascents:
Cavers often work over much longer vertical distances than tree climbers. Even a coastal redwood is not that big a climb to a serious vertical caver. A caver then has much more concern with energy efficiency during climbs than most tree climbers do. A Mitchell ropewalker is a more or less standard system among cavers, but is something of an outlier among tree climbers (I happen to like it, partly 'cause I'm out of shape). DdRT and SRT systems like the Texas (jugging) and the yoyo (or RADS) are not as energy efficient, but they are gear efficient and flexible - both higher priorities for tree climbers. Also, the climbing environment of tree climbers is usually much more spatially complex (winding around branches vs. you, the rope, and the cliff...), so simple flexible systems are really nice.

- Long descents/rappels:
Cavers and rock climbers often rappel for much longer drops than even big tree climbers. At the top of a long rapp, that's a lot of rope weight, and the weight will be decreasing to nearly zero during the rappel. For this reason, variable friction devices like racks are favored because they allow lots of options for gradually changing the friction during the drop. Racks are also about the best at dissipating the heat of a long drop. Rappelling out of a tree is generally a lot less exacting; variable friction is not a big issue because the rope weight at the top is not so great (except in big trees, and even then not nearly so much as above a really deep pit), and heat dissipation is a lot less critical than when going off, say, Half Dome in Yosemite. We use a lot of devices, and there is plenty of room for personal preference.
Another issue is the use of rappel safety knots. They are frowned upon in many caving circles for a couple of reasons: a) they depend on taking your hands OFF to stop (not a natural reaction for most people), and b) the safest configuration (knot below the rappel device, so that the device takes most of the stress in a panic stop) precludes many of the options for varying the friction in the middle of a rappel. As noted above, the second issue is not a big one for tree climbers. The first issue (let go to stop) is potentially serious, but for anyone trained on DdRT, letting go to stop is very well established in the muscle memory and comes quite naturally.

- Ropes:
Of course, not too many tree climbers use the dynamic (springy) ropes that rock climbers favor, because they seldom if ever climb above their tie-in points. A really springy rope would waste a lot of energy during a climb, but a bit of spring is nice to soften the little falls that sometimes happen when going from branch to branch.

- Carabiners:
Tree climbers re-rig a lot during a climb; carabiners come on and off quite often - on average probably a lot more than for rock climbers and cavers. That's probably why tree climbers often (but not universally) prefer autolocking 'biners, and rock climbers always give them weird looks.

- Saddles:
Tree climbers spend lots of time hanging in their saddles, which is why so many of us are grateful to New Tribe (and the manufacturers who have learned from New Tribe) for making saddles in which it is comfortable and safe to hang out. For cavers and rock climbers, a harness is something to hang in as little as possible while you are on your way to somewhere else, or something to catch you in a fall. I've never heard of anyone getting \"harness hang syndrome\" (a very dangerous condition of reduced blood circulation caused by narrow harnesses) in a well-designed tree climbing saddle, but it's a nasty problem for someone sitting in a rock climbing harness for long.

- Tie-ins:
The mechanics and technology of tie-ins are of course rather different for rocks vs. tree branches. Beyond that, tree climbers sometimes change tie-ins as often as rock climbers doing a lead climb. One option rock climbers DON'T have, of course, is setting a TIP 30-130 feet overhead - and this raises some different safety issues when you have to assess TIP safety from a distance...

Can't think of anything else for now. I'll leave aside the differences in attitude, taking it for granted that we all know how much nicer tree climbers are.

Anything to add? Any controversy?

I climb with rock style climbers on white pine, they alternately place and remove slings as they ascend. It works well. They are challenged by large gaps in the branches, they trail a static rope for descent and they'll advance that with a monkey fist to pass branch gaps along the trunk. To get into tall whites with high first branches they'll climb adjacent small trees if available and traverse over to the larger tree. They are limited to conifer climbs with this technique. It's an interesting little tree climbing niche though. They grunt and groan a lot more than trad tree climbers, it's hard work.
-moss

I helped do some rigging for an adventure race in Utah with Jay Smith and Kitty Calhoun a few years ago. They rigged 800, 1100, and a 1600 foot ascents and raps. No lie, 8 miles of rope total. All we, and the racers, were allowed to use for descent were Regular 8's rigged in reverse - rope went through the small hole for more resistance and the big end was clipped to our harnesses.

I agree that rock climbing and caving are different than tree climbing, but the differences are incidental. There are aspects of many different styles that contribute to tree climbing. I showed some of the rock climbers in Utah some high angle rope rescue ideas that they had never seen before.

I also showed some of the members of our crew how they could get out of a canyon, in an emergency, without ascenders (blakes hitch and footlock methods) and they were blown away!

As far as letting go to stop goes, on DdRT, it is foreign to some. I was first trained as a rope rescue technician. We were taught the standard rappel technique but backed it up with a prussik cord self-belay above the descent device. The only way you can engage the belay, is to let go! So basically, holding on to the down rope will slow you down or stop you, but if your world goes to sh--, then you just let go. Try teaching that that to a newbie!

Incorporating different techniques from various sports makes treeclimbing a very versitile sport. That's why I like it.

I have done a lot of rock climbing in the past but much more tree climbing. I use my rock climbing harness in trees as my technique involves actually climbing the tree whenever possible. Of course I use SRT with a static rope and friction saver when the first branches are high up.

Moss mentioned some of his climbing partners using alternate slings when climbing pines. This is quite dangerous in my opinion. Slings cannot be adjusted in the way that a split tail lanyard can and also, they have almost no elasticity. This means that if you fell even a couple of feet onto a slack sling around a branch the shock load would do you some real damage and may well break the branch leading to even worse happenings

Aside from comparisons of gear, I think the differences in the experience of Tree climbing and rock climbing/caving are worth considering:

Tree climbing: Unlike rock climbing, I feel like I'm actually leaving the ground when climbing a tall tree. However I also feel a sense of comfort, being held in the arms of a giant living thing. Branches and leaves below me reduce the feeling of exposure to the height. It's less about reaching the top or overcoming a physical challenge, instead I can find places to sit and relax, enjoy the view and know that I won't be disturbed. Finally, each tree has it's own character, although rocks do too but not to the same extent.

Rock climbing: It's just not as pleasant, being up against the face of a wall. However, the feeling of climbing something that seeems virtually impossible, really working at your limits and doing some superhuman moves is really satisfying. It makes me feel alive and excited in a way that tree climbing doesn't. However, unlike a lot of rock climbers I don't like being in danger, it's just about using my physical ability to the max. So on some really difficult rock climbs I just put a top rope in place first and go for on ridiculously hard pitches, but in complete safety. I've grown out of having to be macho by taking risks.

Caving: I've only done this a couple of times. I get claustrophobic but I can see the intrigue of wanting to explore hidden places you've never been to before. I once saw a T-shirt that said 'Climbing gets you high, caving gets you down' I guess it's not for me then!

Michael

The climbers I've mentioned are aware of the hazards of using slings and climb with that in mind, these are \"ladder\" climbs with 3 points of body contact on the tree. I don't recommend it as a tree climbing technique, but that's how they taught themselves to climb trees, a big improvement over free climbing. I've been weaning them over to using adjustable lanyards, with that technique the sling is used as a positioner/back up while they advance the lanyard. While climbing a big white pine today my climbing friend mentioned that he'd like to start using a second lanyard and begin to ditch the sling technique. A good evolution is in progress.
-moss

Still slightly off-topic, here is the double-ended lanyard I use, sorry about the shocking colour! This gives me about 16ft of reach to move between the two sides of the system as required. I have a larger system but rarely need it in England. Once your friends switch to something like this from slings they'll wonder why they didn't do it earlier!

Michael

Ropes:
Of course, not too many tree climbers use the dynamic (springy) ropes that rock climbers favor, because they seldom if ever climb above their tie-in points. A really springy rope would waste a lot of energy during a climb, but a bit of spring is nice to soften the little falls that sometimes happen when going from branch to branch.

... Another point worth considering.

I love caving, dabbled in rock climbing, and spent most of my time tree climbing. It was an \"Oh duh\" moment when I finally understood the difference between having the strength in the cover of the rope vs the core. If you ever cross over and modify your climbing system (no matter if you got from tree climbing to rock climbing or vice versa) you will probably get the ... what the bleepity bleep do you think your doing? Knowing your rope is essential and not everyone you encounter while tree/rock climbing or caving will be aware of the differences!

Ropes:
Of course, not too many tree climbers use the dynamic (springy) ropes that rock climbers favor, because they seldom if ever climb above their tie-in points. A really springy rope would waste a lot of energy during a climb, but a bit of spring is nice to soften the little falls that sometimes happen when going from branch to branch.

... Another point worth considering.

I love caving, dabbled in rock climbing, and spent most of my time tree climbing. It was an \"Oh duh\" moment when I finally understood the difference between having the strength in the cover of the rope vs the core. If you ever cross over and modify your climbing system (no matter if you got from tree climbing to rock climbing or vice versa) you will probably get the ... what the bleepity bleep do you think your doing? Knowing your rope is essential and not everyone you encounter while tree/rock climbing or caving will be aware of the differences!

I'm one of those cross-over-types. I started in rope rescue, went to rock climbing, and now trees. All three are different but still the same in some aspects.

* Rope is one of the differences. Static rescue rope is generally 90% core (kern) strength and 10% covering (mantle). The core strands are straight or very slightly wavy, making the rope have very little stretch. I would NOT want to take a fall on static rope. Dynamic rock climbing rope, on the other hand, is made with very wavy or even coiled or twisted core strands - the outer covering gives the rope more of it's strength. Almost 50/50 in some ropes. Tree climbing rope, to me falls somewhere in the middle.

If you started a rappel on dynamic rope, and it stretched only 10 inches when you loaded it, it would be considered pretty stiff. If a rescue rope stretched the same 10 inches, it would be considered very stretchy. My tree climbing rope falls some where in the middle. It stretches about 10-15 inches every time I load it to do a bounce test, or begin a climb. And I think that's just about right. Keep in mind, that in order to stretch 10-15 inches, there is usually 50 or 60 feet of rope out to the TIP and back. Come to think of it, doesn't Peter call tree rope \"semi-static\" in the basics video.


The fact is, you can climb trees with static or arborist rope. You could do a pick-off rescue with any of the three types, but I would NEVER rock climb, above my anchor, on anything but a good dynamic rope.

* The above statement is a general statememt. Some ropes do have more or less stretch than the label, static, dynamic, multipurpose, would imply.

Based on the posts in this discussion. I should be able to learn rock climbing and transition to tree climbing fairly easy? I really want to climb trees. But I have to travel at least 300 miles to go to training from OKC. I think that any kind of climbing would be a fun way to get a good workout. I want to get started ASAP.

Any suggestions?

Hi Danwalls,
Get the DVD Tree Climbing Basics. Only $20 US. You'll see all the techniques to get started. Then you can make a decision if you want to invest in a set of gear. Gear will cost between $500-$600 and last for many years. Give it a try. More trees than descent rock.

Another difference with tree climbing. It is 3 dimensional. Rock is pretty stuck at 2 dimensional. Rock doesn't move in the wind either.

Yours
Peter Treeman Jenkins

I am not interested in rock climbing unless it will help me learn how to climb trees. I am trying to figure out how to get to either Kansas City or Denver to take the BTCC class. It looks like it might be May before I can get to one of those.

I bought your DVD and "the tree climbers companion" both are great resources.

I still want someone to be there to make sure I do not learn any bad habits! I bought some rigging rope and threw it over a tree limb, tied my figure 8 on a bight, my safety figure 8 and my blakes hitch. That I just leaned back on it while I was standing on the ground. I do not want to get into the tree until I have someone to mentor me.

One of the reasons I want to get into the tree's is to make my workouts more enjoyable. That treadmill is very boring!

So while I am waiting for what I really want. (tree climbing) My question is would rock climbing provide a safe way to learn from good instructors. I know where I can get rock instruction here in OKC, but the closed person to me who is interested in climbing is at the same place I am.

Would rock climbers teach me anything that would be unsafe in a tree. Things I have read is that there are differences between rock, cave and tree climbing, but many of the same principles apply. It would seam to me that each group could learn from the others. Am I wrong?

Look forward to reading your reply.

Hope I get to meet you someday. I have so many questions.

To the limb and beyond......

Dan (bluespruce)

Sorry, the family just got done watching toy story 3.

I would say no. It is a completely different medium- climbing trees. A completely different concept. I've had some outstanding rock climbers come out to my school and they were COMPLETELY clueless.

BTW- it's admirable that you are waiting to get some more formal training. It's actually the quickest way to learn, but it often involves more money and travel.

Peter Treeman Jenkins