Lighten Up Guys

Quote Oldtimer “Everyone has the right to make its own mistakes to learn a new business...”

We are talking about bringing people doing high risk activity on Zipline.do you think everybody has the right to bringing people playing Zipline and make its own mistake experiment?

Keep balance
Elliot

Hello Elliot, you missed the sarcastic undertone part of my posting and Tom Dunlap's post. ( Kind of read between the lines). In this country every one has the right to do anything they want as long as nobody gets hurt or injured. If someone gets hurt (badly) them you will provably get a law suit by some lawyer that will take everything including your house and small kids to make you pay for the damages. Even if it was not your fault or the user did not follow the proper safety rules or operational instructions. You better have LOTS of Liability Insurance but in any case you can held liable for killing someone and that is a criminal act in most states in the USA. So take it easy and be careful with those zip lines.

connecting biners in a chain is not a good plan. You should have a soft link between the biners. Look at rock climbing quick draws,

Also, consider using double auto locking biners like the Petzl ball locks instead of screw gate biners.

Using hands as a braking device near the pulleys is asking for trouble. What do you plan on doing when glove gets sucked into the pulley? Scary and dangerous!

On a Zipline I rode 160 meters over the canopy in Chikin-Ha Mexico they whittled a stick from a small limb. It looked like a cane but the handle was an thumb sized offshoot that the cable to be hooked over and pulled down to slow down.

Click here to go to the Mayan Canopy Zipline

When I first approached the platform I didn't see any saddles and I thought they were expected us hang on to the cane as it burned down the cable. I got a good laugh but of course we used saddles.

After skyflying we snorkeled in the Evian Clear waters of the cenotes and we were able to swim around the massive root system of the trees overhead. So I have climbed thru the trees upperstory and swimmed about the underwater roots.

So go harvest some stout branches and carve up some of your own "mayan brake handles".

See you at the top.
treetramp

Let's get some helmets on those kids!

How is the rope/cable attached to the tree? Is it backed up?

Don't let people touch the cable while zipping. Cable is prone to splintering and that equals a LARGE slice into your hand (glove or no glove).

In my opinion (and I've had a little experience with zip lines) there should be NO reason for the rider to be able to touch the pulley or the cable while riding. They should hang well below the cable and hardware. Stopping should be accomplished, as you've described, by the slope and slack in the zip line.

Looks fun, though!

love
nick

I'm with Nick.

You've got too close proximity to the line.
You don't want folks grabbing that line. Cable will cut through a leather glove like butter at even low speed, I've shreaded gloves packing up window washing equipment. Imagine what your kid's head is gonna look like when he bangs his forhead on the line on the trip down. Can you say "hamburger"? I knew you could!

Also I notice you've got no tagline. I guess it will be an exciting rescue when somebody gets the party side of a mullet caught in the pulley. Course with all your well thought out safety procedures, I'm sure the guy was sent down with a sharpened knife to scalp himself and then cut free from the harness for self rescue.

I've got nothing positive to say about that rig.

Icabod

Now this is interesting. . .
I do believe the above post(s) may qualify as a flame.
I’ve been hawking this forum for two years and finally Mr. Rogers neighborhood shows a little hutzpah. And well done too. No profanity or personal attacks. Merely a good healthy application of one’s own opinion of a person, place, or thing.

As for this thread, some observations of your input. . .
Brakes: You cant tell if your moving too fast until it’s too late to stop. Go ahead, grab that cable, It works more like razor-ribbon once your at speed.
Metal to Metal: The biners in a chain might work for a test-flight but a sling that puts you lower and away from the machinery will increase the longevity of fingers, face, and hair.
Helmets: Good point Nick, Especially on a zip-line.

Feasibility Rating. . .
As a home brew thrill ride, yeah, why not. Heck, have a couple of beers too.
As a commercially marketed product? It might not meet the ANSI spec just yet. I think we may have witnessed that just because your capable of installing it, does not mean that your qualified to use it. Yes/no?

So Nate,
Your thread (and product) certainly perked up the message base. Obviously this TCI Forum gang is dedicated to personal safety with an emphasis on protecting the trees. So now that we have had a chance to critique your product, a reply is in order.

And Nate, be nice, we’re potential customers
Electrojake

Working on one. Gettin ready for the firing squad.

Nate, thanks for being a good sport... I could see you pulling a Cartman and just walking away saying "screw you guys, I'm going home!"

love
nick

Hoo boy, looks like I’ve really let the mouse into the elephant pen on this one. Maybe I should clear some things up.

First of all, that picture was not how I recommend ropes courses to operate. I figured you guys would be all over me on that one. Not disappointed. After doing several weight tests on the cable from the ground, I went up to check the anchors on both ends for the umpteenth time and decided to try it out. It was getting late in the day, and I didn’t want to climb back down to grab a helmet (which I should’ve been wearing already, you got me on that one) and a lanyard. So I just chain linked a couple locking biners and zipped down to the lower platform. Stupid? Maybe. One heck of a ride? You bet. Fortunately, no problems.
In fact, this is almost exactly like the set up used by many adventure parks (with the exception of the helmet), like the Treesort here in Southern Oregon for example. Click here to see their set-up. Or here , to see another set up like it. It works fine, but it’s not optimal. Hanging further below with a lever-operated brake and a safety stop at the end is better. I believe the Treesort has put up some sort of bungee stop at the end since I was there.

Ropes courses are like any other activity. Do it right, and you're safe. Do it wrong, and you'll get yourself injured. The same is true with rock climbing, tree climbing, snowboarding, mountain biking, or any other outdoor activity (with the possible exception of croquet). There is always the possibility of doing something really stupid, like getting your gloves sucked into the trolley, or not wearing a helmet…hmmm….

As far as frayed cable and leather gloves- it depends on the cable construction and the glove quality. Braking on 7x7 and 7x19 construction cable at least ¼” diameter isn’t a problem. I’ve tested medium to high-speed zip lines with 3/16” cable and medium duty gloves with little or no wear on the gloves. Most canopy tours and ropes courses will simply stitch an extra pad of leather onto the palm of a work glove when braking is really necessary. But like I said, it works great, but isn’t optimal. A mechanical brake (or something like the "mayan brake handles" Tom mentioned), and a little more distance from the line is preferable.

Regarding liability, injuries, etc.- all true. That’s why ropes courses have standards and regulations concerning set up and operation. I’m just the middle guy for the available products. I buy zip line components in bulk (harnesses, biners, cable, hardware, tensioning systems, etc., you name it) and retail it online. There are plenty of companies that will install, maintenance, and operate ropes courses (Oldtimer mentioned www.bonsai-design.com , there’s also www.giacanopytours.com ), but that’s not something I’m even remotely interested in doing.

A little over a year ago, I started researching zip line construction, canopy tours, and ropes courses in general. I looked at multiple course designs, and came up with a fairly standard kit that most courses use, with small variations. Early on I realized I didn’t want to be installing these, due to liability, my inexperience, etc. So I just decided to retail the equipment to those who are qualified to do so. To my knowledge, there are only two prominent online zip line retail stores, www.outdoorfunstore.com , and www.ziplinehomekits.com . Both have an incredibly high mark up from wholesale, so I’m able to beat their prices with higher quality hardware.

Am I qualified to install and certify a ropes course? No. Definitely not. Maybe someday. But can I sell the gear? I don’t think that’s a problem. I may not know the first thing about tree climbing, but I can still get you a deal on a good piece of rope.

I built this zip line mostly so I can test multiple braking devices, get some experience for myself, and have some fun (not quite old enough for those beers ). I appreciate all the input and the concern for safety. You guys have been very helpful.

-Nathan

So....how'd I do?

Nate read your post and I see that you have done some background work into this zip-line stuff. That is why I told you and the other board members we need to let people do their stuff on their own and learn from their experiences. A lot of these high risk adventures need to be handled with care but I think people need too be allowed to dream and do what they consider their passion before everyone (neisayers) try to jump hard on their case. I wish you a lot of success on your venture. Keep us Informed and post here some of your experiences......good or bad ones. Who knows... maybe we may even learn something new from you!

Thanks for being open minded and not be defensive about all our criticisms. Sometimes we think that we know everything and our opinions get a little bit over the top.

Nate, thanks for being a good sport... I could see you pulling a Cartman and just walking away saying "screw you guys, I'm going home!"

sweeeeettttt

Now this is interesting. . .
I do believe the above post(s) may qualify as a flame.
I’ve been hawking this forum for two years and finally Mr. Rogers neighborhood shows a little hutzpah. And well done too. No profanity or personal attacks. Merely a good healthy application of one’s own opinion of a person, place, or thing.

Ok, let me change my shoes, and my cardigan, and I'll elaborate...
...
...
...

Ok, I didn't mean to flame Nate. My sarcasam is a finely tuned instrument of logical argument. It is most often played to spur someone into rethinking a position, though often is misread as a personal attack. Thanks for taking it like a man. (Insert Hans and Frans: "don't be a girly mon!")

I really worry about someone getting seriously hurt. As a group we have alot of fun, but the moment somebody gets injured really bad I don't have so much fun anymore. When I can say, "I told you so", I have an emotional drain for the pressures of "I should have stopped him..."

Seriously though, climb safe. As the joke goes, the redneck's last words were "Hey y'all, wach 'is"

Gotta go the trolly just rolled into the living room...

Icabod (would you be my neighbor?)

Nate, looks like you did remarkably well here.
> Nice delivery.
> Detailed but not boring.
> Positive attitude throughout your reply.
> Good clarification without getting defensive.

Although your R & D on this project is impressive. . .
. . . your customer relations skills are spectacular!

Nice reply.
Regards,
Electrojake

Nate,

You did well. I'm glad to see you took the critiques well and with a good attitude. The flames kept getting higher and higher but you kept them in perspective, the mark of a good student.

IMHO, for the newbies who ask us our input, we should aim to practice correction without condemnation (thanks John).